Joined: Nov 08, 2007 Posts: 850 Location: toronto, Earth-616
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:20 pm Post subject:
Amorosa wrote:
Surprisingly, the talking got a bit heated, but hopefully we can continue it here with a softer tone.
The talking just got heated entirely because there was a disagreement on the math of 'how much time is lost' if one of the first biters delays 5 seconds.
To make this a little clearer, lets consider instead how much DAMAGE is lost on a 5 second delay. This will all be in rough numbers because I'm pulling stuff out of my ass.
FACTS
1) The buff causes you to deal +100% dmg
2) By the time the enrage hits, 16 players will be vampires
Say the average dps of those players is X (of course, not everyone deals the same dmg, this is just to simplify the math). This means (on average) each second a player could be buffed but isnt, we lose X dmg. If the first vampire delays 5 seconds to bite the second vampire, this means the second vampire has lost 5 potential seconds of being buffed, and thus 5X damage. IN ADDITION (this is where the disagreement on the math was) every player that will be bitten AFTER THIS BITE also gets bitten 5 seconds later (because of the first delay), meaning each of them have 5 potential seconds of dps time lost, meaning another 5X dmg per player.
That is to say, each person (other than the initial bite, who was bitten by the boss) has lost 5 seconds of 'being bit' time.
we end up with a total of 5x15 = 75 seconds of lost 'potential seconds of dps', and at a X damage per second, this is a TOTAL of 75X damage.
If we say the average raid DPS is 7000, then this number comes out at over half a million damage.
At the end of the day, I don't think anyone cares about what we do if the boss goes down, but the disagreement was based on the math, and this is what the math says. _________________ ... in bed!
Joined: Nov 09, 2007 Posts: 485 Location: Waterloo, ON
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:31 pm Post subject:
I JUST finished doing up a chart explaining exactly what Ben just said in his last post. It's on paper though, not digital, so give me a few minutes and I'll edit this post to include it in digital form.
edit: The point is not to say "this strategy is bad," it's to clarify the math that was in disagreement. Obviously the strategy is not terrible, as we killed her yesterday. But that's because we have awesome dps and managed to kill her despite losing 75 seconds of vampire dps time. Yes, it reduces gibbing during BBW, which is good. No one is saying that is not a consequence of delaying the bite by 5 seconds.
The red horizontal lines indicate vampire dps time if we do delay the bite. The blue horizontal lines indicate vampire dps time if we do not delay the bite. The vertical lines indicate when bites occur. Notice that in the delayed version, only the first bite is delayed, the rest are instant. In the instant version, all bites are instant.
I know that when actually executing the fight, "instant" bites don't actually happen in 0.0 seconds. I know that dps time is lost for the melee while she is in the air regardless. This chart is simplified to illustrate the main difference between the two strategies. It assumes they are executed flawlessly.
As you can see, it's not just the 2nd bitee who loses 5 seconds of vampire dps time. 5 seconds of vampire dps time is lost for every player bitten thereafter. The first bitee suffers no delay. So 15 players lose 5 seconds of vampire dps time, resulting in 75 seconds of vampire dps time lost. As Ben said, this works out to *very roughly* half a million damage.
Again, we're not saying we shouldn't use this strategy. We're just clarifying the points from the argument about the math from yesterday.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you get the damage bonus while you have bloodthirst (the 10 second debuff that you have to bite someone within). Also, I don't think a person can dps while this debuff is up anyway so the first person waiting five seconds will still cause them to lose five seconds of bitten dps time. (possibly five seconds of dps time in general?) Not a huge difference, I just want to make sure I'm not crazy
Joined: Nov 09, 2007 Posts: 485 Location: Waterloo, ON
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:04 pm Post subject:
Lierra wrote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you get the damage bonus while you have bloodthirst (the 10 second debuff that you have to bite someone within). Also, I don't think a person can dps while this debuff is up anyway so the first person waiting five seconds will still cause them to lose five seconds of bitten dps time. (possibly five seconds of dps time in general?) Not a huge difference, I just want to make sure I'm not crazy
Once you bite someone, I believe the bloodthirsty debuff goes away and you regain the original vampire debuff after a second or so. That sort of thing would just overcomplicate the chart so I didn't bother including those details, because it affects both strategies equally. As for the first person not having dps time while they're waiting, that's true, so you can add up the total to 80 sec of lost vampire dps with the delay.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you get the damage bonus while you have bloodthirst (the 10 second debuff that you have to bite someone within). Also, I don't think a person can dps while this debuff is up anyway so the first person waiting five seconds will still cause them to lose five seconds of bitten dps time. (possibly five seconds of dps time in general?) Not a huge difference, I just want to make sure I'm not crazy
You are unable to DPS between the time you get blood thirsty and when you bite someone. That's what I meant in my previous post about myself losing "any" dps for 1 sec while my bite target would lose "buffed" dps for 1 sec (this is assuming the subsequent bite goes out at a set point, first bite being delayed or not, after the BBW ends).
Also, like I had said before, the exact numbers in my post were approximate, but either way, a 5 second delay is too long and gives us no real benefit. Yeah, it's not going to be a big deal because it would only affect myself and Terashi, but it is ~25k dmg per second delayed.
Joined: Nov 16, 2008 Posts: 391 Location: Kitchener
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:50 am Post subject:
Cendrine wrote:
Lierra wrote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you get the damage bonus while you have bloodthirst (the 10 second debuff that you have to bite someone within). Also, I don't think a person can dps while this debuff is up anyway so the first person waiting five seconds will still cause them to lose five seconds of bitten dps time. (possibly five seconds of dps time in general?) Not a huge difference, I just want to make sure I'm not crazy
Once you bite someone, I believe the bloodthirsty debuff goes away and you regain the original vampire debuff after a second or so. That sort of thing would just overcomplicate the chart so I didn't bother including those details, because it affects both strategies equally. As for the first person not having dps time while they're waiting, that's true, so you can add up the total to 80 sec of lost vampire dps with the delay.
Your chart is impressive and causes me to want a whiteboard. Some nit-picking: if the first biter delays, he's forfeiting 5 seconds of dps, which is doubled, so is worth 10 seconds of a normal person's dps. But this is mitigated by the fact that the 3rd and 4th bitees are not really doing any dps while she's in the air. So the lost dps is equivalent to 5 * (0 + 3 + 0 + 4 + 8) seconds' worth, which is the 75 you came up with anyway. (First bite -- the one BQL dispenses -- has no delay; second bite has 5 seconds of lost vampire time + 5 seconds of lost bonus time; third bite has no penalty since it's during BBW; the next ones are delayed for all the remaining bitees.)
TL;DR: math students arguing about nothing really.
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:37 am Post subject: Delaying etc....
Although we did end up losing out on a bit of seconds here and there for each of the vampires, the delay in biting helped out during the 1st BBW, where we were having issues keeping biters/bitees alives and not having them go insane. Looking at how tight the requirements are, 16 vampires up is a must at this point, and every time we didn't have 1-2-4-8-16 vampires up was a going to fall short.
We ended up delaying it only about 2-3 seconds instead of 5.
I've noticed that for ranged, we end up losing out on dps time trying to find the target we want to bite and running to them / them running to us. If we're looking for seconds to shave, we could additionally assign the 8-9 ranged into 2 group; the bite would go cross group first, then down their group:
i.e. 1-0 -> 1-1 -> 2-2 -> 4-4
So the only heavy running across the room happens at the first bite, and all subsequent bites are on the same side of the room.
I've found a mod that supposedly does the bite order; if someone in 10man would like to try it out:
One thing to point out, regarding ranged dps biting people. If there is going to be any dps lost due to moving, make sure you're losing it before you get blood thirsty and literally can't dps any longer. The reason for this is simple: the less time you spend blood thirsty, the more time everyone in your biting line gets having the dmg buff. This might seem counter intuitive because usually you'd want to dps as long as you can until a dmg buff runs out, but because you regain the dmg buff as soon as you bite, you'll spend the same amount of time dpsing with the buff either way. We can look at the WoL report to see duration of the blood thirsty debuff, it shouldn't be more than 1 (maybe 2) seconds depending on how many times you bite people.
Conclusion: Minimalize blood thirsty uptime by getting next to your target beforehand.
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